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brownel02

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Reply with quote  #1 
I hate when this happens!!  At least it wasn't my quad at the time.  

So my question is, do I repair it or part it out?  If repair, what am I looking at for cost to bring it back to stock (not wanting to do anything crazy).  Valves don't look bad and trans seems ok, its just those pesky gear parts poking out from the front of both cases and what they did to the rest of the internals!!

Nearest dealer is about an hour away (not that I would take it to the dealer) but that gives a sense of our KTM services here.  I would also need to replace the entire wiring harness as the previous owner butchered the lot of it.  Not one straight run without a crimp, cut or splice in it.  

2009 525 front case.jpg 
2009 525 side case.jpg 
2009 Outlaw Front.jpg 
2009 Outlaw Side.jpg 
2009 Outlaw Rear.jpg

LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #2 
I would repair it the 09+ are harder to come by. I think I would look for a good used engine for that one.

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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
AlliedCeaser

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Reply with quote  #3 
http://www.ktmatvhq.com/forum/xc-engine-carb-drivetrain/13152-brand-new-crate-motor-engine-450xc-2000-00-a.html
don't Know if this is sold yet or not.


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2008 Outlaw 450 MXR Solid Axle
Mods - Big gun Full Exhaust
          Jetted
          K&N Full Air Filter
[3895E9D9-C0BA-4A0F-9DC1-930DCCB7F619_zpsih6gc06e] 
ORION

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Reply with quote  #4 
What caused the failure? 
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #5 
Allied,

Thanks for the link.  I saw that last week or so when you posted it.  Unfortunately the $2k is a bit over my budget at this point.  

Orion,

Short answer is drugs.  Quad came from a friend who is/was going through some tough stuff.  I bought it from the family to help with his rehab costs.  Ideally it would be a 2 stroke and I would fix it and sell it rather quickly.  The reality is that I am no 4 stroke mechanic.  I was originally only interested in the 10" rims and rear shocks (and a few other small pieces to swap onto my 2008) but seeing the condition of it I am having a hard time parting it out.  My biggest issues are the motor and wiring harness, although the harness is not that big of a deal overall.  

I did pull the head off and the valves all look ok.  Trans still seems to function (not locked up) but the two center cases are trashed and I am sure some other stuff as well.  Like I said, I am no 4 stroke mechanic.  I do have the manual but not sure I trust myself to do the work.  
ORION

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Reply with quote  #6 
Your looking at a complete engine overhaul. You have to strip every single bit of that motor apart all the way down to the trans. If it were me, I would try to find a motor with a blown top end, and put the two together. 

Drugs may have led up to the failure, but what caused that gear to push through the case like that? Low oil?

P.S. How much you pay for the bike?
AlliedCeaser

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Reply with quote  #7 


All these videos helped me a lot.

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2008 Outlaw 450 MXR Solid Axle
Mods - Big gun Full Exhaust
          Jetted
          K&N Full Air Filter
[3895E9D9-C0BA-4A0F-9DC1-930DCCB7F619_zpsih6gc06e] 
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #8 
Awesome, thanks for the vids.  I will take a look at those.

As for the real cause it is suspect.  I have heard that he was drag racing up and down the street but that is third hand knowledge.  I drained all the fluids and it seemed to have at least a quart of oil remaining in it, hard to say as I didn't measure it and an unknown amount leaked out through the hole.  Radiator also had about a quart in there, I know that one was low.  I gave them $1000 for the bike.  
Fuj

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Reply with quote  #9 
Couple ways to look at this.....

You basically bought a full roller for a thousand
bucks.

You could give it a good cleaning, and if your in
no rush, try and locate a motor for it.

You could also just offer it up as is; say for $1500.

Or part it out.....Parting it out would probably be
your better way of cash retrieval, but there is the
time involved, stripping and shipping, and hopefully
deals that go smoothly.

Is there a clean title ??

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ORION

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Reply with quote  #10 
Looks like you could get the cases for around $300 or so on Ebay. Around $100 in gaskets..... Leave the head alone and reuse the timing chain... 

  I bet you could get her going again for $500-$600.
ScramblerXLE

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Reply with quote  #11 
I'd love to see the inside of that thing... I'm guessing a counter balancer bearing failed catastrophically.  Even using a bit of eBay and doing the work yourself, I don't see this engine going back together for under $1000... Cases may be found in the $300 range but you still need to replace the crank and balancer bearings on them just to be sure the clock is at zero, then a balancer shaft and who knows what shape the crank is in.  And once you're done with that, it would be foolish not to do a timing chain and a few other little things...

Like I said, I'd be surprised if you didn't find $1000 worth of stuff to do while you were in there.

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-Walt GNCC # 728 (GNCC - Vet A)
2015 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450XC
2009 KTM 250XC
2005 Predator 558 (project)
2003 Cannondale 440 (project)
2006 KLX 250S
2002 Scrambler X 500
Sold, crashed, or otherwise gone: 2008 YFZ450, 2005 Predator 500 LE, 2007 Outlaw 525, 2003 Cannondale 440
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #12 
yeah i would say to do it right at least $1k a good used engine can be had for that if you watch the old evilbay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-KTM-450-SX-Engine-Motor-Complete-and-Running-EXC-MXC-SX-400-450-525-/121456068398?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c4758872e&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-RFS-2004-450-Sx-Engine-Motor-Cases-Crank-Trans-400-Exc-525-MXc-560-smr-00-06-/121455943824?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c4756a090&vxp=mtr

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-08-KTM-Super-Duke-990-LC8-MOTOR-ENGINE-GOOD-COMPRESSION-8K-GUARANTEED-/141427359800?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20edba4038&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Ktm-450-Smr-Exc-Engine-Motor-Complete-Electrical-Clutch-Cart-Ktm450-Ex-C-Sm-/321548381481?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4addc6ed29&vxp=mtr

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-250SX-KTM-250-SX-engine-motor-strong-runner-/350773057710?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51abb418ae&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-300-EXC-93-Complete-Engine-w-Electronics-/221575106314?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3396e7cf0a&vxp=mtr

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-KTM-500MX-500-MX-BOTTOM-END-CRANK-TRANSMISSION-CASES-CASE-MOTOR-ENGINE-/261533011352?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ce4950d98&vxp=mtr

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-KTM-DUKE-LC4-690-ENGINE-MOTOR-30-DAY-GUARANTEE-2K-MILES-/161471077443?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25986d1c43&vxp=mtr

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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #13 
Ya, if you wanted to do it properly it would cost at least a grand. 
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #14 
where are you located?
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quite the list of motors Leo.  A monster would be fun to throw in this thing but I don't ride like I used too.  

Will the 450 motors be a straight drop in to the 2009 chasis?  I don't mind making a new motor mount if need be but would the balance of everything pretty much just bolt in?  

I am in the outside of Albany, NY.  

Yes, clean title in hand.  

My biggest concern with doing any of the work myself is that a) I don't have a timing chain breaker (not the biggest issue) b) not sure I would trust myself to time it once complete and c) what issues would come up as I got into it.  As Scrambler mentioned, balancer, bearings, crank... too many unknowns at this point.  

Looking at my 2008 compared to the 2009 I am surprised to see how many differences there are between the two, everything from the seat, plastics, gas tank... I never would have guessed that.  

The idea of dropping in a 450 does have my interest now though.  Keep talking guys.  

Thanks


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Reply with quote  #16 
i am pretty sure the 2009+ irs is the same as the sra engine and the dirtbikes for the most part. i know there would be some wiring and stator differences but if your wiring harness is butchered a donor wiring harness would likely be the best way anyway. if you are near wyoming and do not want to spend too much on it as fuj suggested i may be interested in buying it and just making you a decent profit right now. either way keep watching ebay many 525 and 450 rfs engines pop up in the $1k range.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #17 
Time and money invested VS how much it would cost to buy a different one that runs - something to consider. 

Selling it at a profit is not a bad idea.

Or you could hang onto it, and search around for one that runs but needs a new frame (Crashed). Turn two quads into one, and have lots of spare parts. 

Buy another Outlaw and keep this one for extra parts?

Parting it out would probably be a hassle. 

I guess one thing you could do would be to tear that motor down all the way and see how messed up it really is. If the whole motor is junk from the jug down, then that changes things. 




brownel02

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Reply with quote  #18 
I already have a running 2008 IRS which is partially why I agreed to buy this one.  

Leo, I am in NY so I don't think that would work.  I think I may go two directions here:

1. tear down the motor (learning as I go, not like I can screw anything up).  This will be good in case anything goes wrong with my motor.  Assess what things look like in there and see what happens from there. 

2. Look into slapping a 450 in there and making a go of it that way.  

All in all it looks like I will be in for the same amount of money. 
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #19 
yeah tear it down for the experience and look for a deal on a full running engine. you might be able to part out the trans, head and piston and cylinder for close to what another used engine will run.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #20 
Dumb question:  will any timing chain breaker tool work?
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #21 
yeah they will. some say that cheap ones do not work as good as the more expensive ones. the only one i ever used was a cheap one from rmatv and it worked great. from what i have seen the motion pro and the tusk tools from rmatv are the exact same tool. if you are not going to re use that chain and i would not if it were mine it can just be cut with a dremel or angle grinder.

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/search?term=timing+chain+tool

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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #22 
Excellent call Sir, a dremel I do have  [character0036]

I will have it off tomorrow
AlliedCeaser

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Reply with quote  #23 
Keep us updated with pics.
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2008 Outlaw 450 MXR Solid Axle
Mods - Big gun Full Exhaust
          Jetted
          K&N Full Air Filter
[3895E9D9-C0BA-4A0F-9DC1-930DCCB7F619_zpsih6gc06e] 
outy027

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Reply with quote  #24 
that motors what you call "cracked out" hahaha thanks ill be here all week [sign0002]
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2015 season. 2010 mx/xc collab build in the works. 
ScramblerXLE

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Reply with quote  #25 
I'm anxious to see what the inside looks like.  I guess I thought I read that you already had the head off it, so I assumed the piston and cylinder all looked like they should have, if that's not the case, i'm guessing a rod has broken and that's what put the balancer through the side of the case... Guess we'll see.
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-Walt GNCC # 728 (GNCC - Vet A)
2015 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450XC
2009 KTM 250XC
2005 Predator 558 (project)
2003 Cannondale 440 (project)
2006 KLX 250S
2002 Scrambler X 500
Sold, crashed, or otherwise gone: 2008 YFZ450, 2005 Predator 500 LE, 2007 Outlaw 525, 2003 Cannondale 440
brownel02

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Reply with quote  #26 
Dremeled off the timing chain and started breaking into things.

Polaris Head.jpg 
Valves look ok
Polaris Valves.jpg 

Piston doesn't look too bad (scuffs on the skirt)
Polaris Piston Top.jpg 
Rod still in one piece and straight
Polaris Piston Side.jpg  4

Cylinder looks ok (tough to photo)
Polaris Cylinder.jpg 

Need a clutch puller to continue this side
Polaris Clutch Side 2.jpg 

Need another puller for this side as well
Polaris Drive Side.jpg 

ORION

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Reply with quote  #27 


That one intake valve on the top right of the pic looks like it might sunken into the head, but its hard to tell from the pics. Might need a valve job if it is. Compress the spring to expose the valve's seating surface, and see if the valve is all cupped out. 

On the pic that shows the connecting rod, what is all that stuff Im seeing? Is that metal flakes all over everything- might be nothing, but it caught my eye. 
ORION

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Reply with quote  #28 
That same pic, look at the bottom left side of the piston skirt. Is that dented? Almost looks like something was bouncing around under the piston putting dents in everything. 
brownie

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Reply with quote  #29 

Valves all look about the same in terms of how they are seated. Tough to take some of the pics and have 'real life' show up. I did push them out but didn't notice anything crazy in terms of cupping.

Connecting rod and most other components have flakes of aluminum on them. I suspect it is from when the balancer gear started to go and that gear was grinding its way through the case. Oil screens and filters have shades of aluminum as well but not too bad (not good don't get me wrong). I think since the motors demise was so quick the shavings never really got a chance to be circulated through the motor.

Nothing real crazy on the piston except some scuffing on the skirt.  I will try to get a better pic tonight after I wipe off some of the aluminum bits.  Some items are just hard to photo and either show shadows or blend features together. 

  
ScramblerXLE

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Reply with quote  #30 
You actually don't necessarily need a puller to remove the clutch basket.  An impact wrench will remove that large nut and if the inner was torqued properly by whoever installed it last, often times the hub will just slip off.  If that doesn't work, I've had good luck threading some M6 bolts into two of the towers directly across from one another, putting vice grips on both, and pulling evenly on them both.  (I've even used some light slide-hammering to complete this task with Rekluse hubs, but that can be little more dangerous...) If that doesn't work, don't force it, you may actually need a puller.  KTM makes an extractor that works good for this sort of thing, part number is 59029021044.

Upon re-assembly, you'll want some way to hold the clutch in place to torque the hub nut.  One like this works nice and is cheap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EBC-Clutch-Basket-Holding-Tool-CT023-/231070113046?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AKTM%7CModel%3A525&hash=item35ccda1d16&vxp=mtr

With as good as everything else looks, it is starting to look like at least one of the balancer shaft bearings self-destructed.  I just looked at the rod and there are definitely some marks from the balancer hitting it... It will take some more pictures to be sure, but that rod may not be safe to run either if it's been hit super hard...  I would bet you're going to find a nasty hit down by the big end that ultimately threw the balancer shaft through the cases.  

Interesting failure for sure...  Did the previous owner mention any knocking noises or anything prior to the failure?  I haven't ever seen the balancer bearings fail without a NASTY rattling noise first.  They do usually wear out before the crank bearings though.

I have done one 450 engine for a friend where the clutch-side balancer bearing completely failed, the cages exploded and the balls went everywhere.  Tore up a couple little things, but nothing serious.  Fortunately, the owner shut it down before it did anything like what happened to yours.  I actually own that engine now... It runs great!

Overall though, there may be a prayer of getting this one back together for under $1000.  There's a lot of stuff in it that looks pretty decent...  Waiting on more pictures though.  Let us know if you see anything really nasty on the rod...

__________________
-Walt GNCC # 728 (GNCC - Vet A)
2015 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450XC
2009 KTM 250XC
2005 Predator 558 (project)
2003 Cannondale 440 (project)
2006 KLX 250S
2002 Scrambler X 500
Sold, crashed, or otherwise gone: 2008 YFZ450, 2005 Predator 500 LE, 2007 Outlaw 525, 2003 Cannondale 440
brownie

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Reply with quote  #31 
Thanks for the EBC link.  Having the guys in the shop make me a flywheel puller as I type [wink]

I will get a few more things off tonight and snap more pics.  Thank again for all the help/thoughts/tips guys
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