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fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #1 
  So I rebuilt a 2003 Polaris predator with, 560 bbk, new valve train, port and polish, ect... First time I put it together and started it got coolant in oil right away. So I thought it was the bearing for the water pump went and killed the seal. As there was noise in that area. So I bought a 06 bottom end from Birdman because I wanted reverse anyways. So now got it all together and same problem. Really getting frustrated. Just pulled the head off to look for cracks or anything and cant find nothing. And yes I torqued it right and used new gaskets each time. Anything else I should look for?
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #2 
i would take your head and cylinder in to a machine shop and have them checked for hair line cracks that only open when the engine is hot.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #3 
Would they have more precise procedures for checking for cracks than just putting it in the oven at 200 and looking at it? Or should I just try that myself first?
TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #4 
They can magnaflux the cylinder and see if there are any cracks you cant see.  They can check for head and cylinder flatness as well.
By any chance, did you look at the head gasket and head/cylinder surfaces to see if you could tell if the water was leaking there?  Itll usually show up as a "clean" area. 

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2007 Outlaw IRS

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fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #5 
  Yea I inspected head and base gaskets both times. Cylinder was machined at the shop when I had the sleeve put in for the JE BBK. The head I ported, polished, and rebuilt myself. It all looked solid when I was in there. But maybe I messed something up somehow. I just can't image what. I will take it the the shop where I had the bore done and if we can't figure it out I will take it to a machine shop to look for cracks.
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #6 
So my race shop and I went over assembly diagram and noticed they show gasket sealer on the base and head gasket before assembly. I didn't goop either one so I think the base gasket was leaking even with proper torque procedure and new gaskets. So I'm going to put it back together with some non hardening black goo and see if that fixes it.  
TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #7 
The old race car guys used to use Hylomar on shim type head gaskets to keep them from leaking.... personally, I use copper coat on my head gaskets and it works great. 
However, Id still make sure that there aren't any cracks, gouges, and the surfaces are both flat.  I'd also use new head bolts.  A little extra time and money spent now could save you allot of headaches and money later.

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2007 Outlaw IRS

"Outlaws are the Chuck Norris of the quad world."
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #8 
So new gaskets came in and put it together again yesterday. Took it for a ride and as soon as it got warmed up it started sucking coolant into the oil again. I'm so frustrated. Has to be a crack somewhere in the head or cylinder.
TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #9 
Anything on this? 
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Team Bricktucky

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Reply with quote  #10 
let me ask you this question,, does the coolant over flow out the overflow tank ? after the engine cools down do you notice any air pressure when you remove the radiator cap. listen for it when you remove the cap. if you have both of these issue then I would say the cylinder is cracked or wasn't pressed in right. is your spark plug showing any signs of antifreeze on it and can you maybe look at the top of the piston to see if water is in the cylinder ? In my predator lifetime a have had two times when I had issues with coolant in the oil , one time was from using a 03 head that was ported to deep and coolant was getting in the intake. The other time was a cracked 110mm bore that had a hair line crack . if you had a mechanical seal issue the coolant should be dripping out the weep hole under the water pump.  make sure that weep hole is not clogged first. if its clogged and the seal hasn't seated in the coolant cam and will find its way into the engine though the counter balancer bearing.
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #11 
       So I gave up on the predator for awhile that's why I haven't posted results. I finally took the head and the cylinder back off for the fifth time since project started. I dropped it off down at Wausau engines and had it pressure tested. Found out my sleeve around the bottom is leaking. The guy who done my sleeve said back when it was done that most kits come with a o-ring that would get squashed between the base and cylinder and was surprised this one didn't.
    I can't believe nobody else has ever had this problem. I am going to try and use a thick bead of grey rtv and let it dry before I assemble and see if that stops it. Any other suggestions? I tried to find o-rings but no luck with one that would fit.
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #12 
I have never seen one with an oring. It is meant to have a base gasket. I use copper coat on both sides of these gaskets but I would not use rtv.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #13 
Silicone may end up plugging a coolant pump oil pump or oil filter. I think the sleave needs to be fixed or the gasket just never sealed. I think the sleave is messed up. The oring excuse stinks like an old dead fish to me.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #14 
Ive had really good luck with copper coat to seal stubborn leaking head gaskets, but you might also look into Hylomar or some of the newer stuff from Permatex.
  I am also a fan of "The Right Stuff" by Permatex for sealing dang near anything, and honestly, if I were you, and you are certain that its leaking at the base gasket, I'd use it.  Its got much better body and strength than rtv sealer (it turns to a hard rubber and is resistant to gas and oil).  But like Leo said, be careful not to let it get into the oil passages. 



 

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2007 Outlaw IRS

"Outlaws are the Chuck Norris of the quad world."
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #15 
The base gasket isn't what's leaking. Where the sleeve and the aluminum meet up is where it leaks at. The only way to fix would be to some how pull the sleeve back out, find a new jug and redo it. I really don't want to have to do that but will if I have to. I could also run some stop leak in the radiator I guess. There is also a small leak inside where my spark plug boot is. I bout some liquid metal two part epoxy I thought might work instead of the silicone. Anyone ever use that on internal engine parts? It doesn't say anything about being oil resistant but it cures so hard you can drill and tap it.
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #16 
I think the guy that set your sleave needs to make that right.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #17 
Yea I know. He races some of the same machines I own and is very good most of the time. also the only guy close to me that does this stuff. I am afraid I will go and piss him off. I like the guy and to tell him he has to buy me a new jug and redo it might inable me from going to him. I should have taken it to a bigger company machine shop across town to do.
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #18 
Yeah I hear what you are saying, just that oring crap is messed up, that is purely a cover up excuse. if he is good and knows his stuff he knows better. If he seriously thinks an oring is what is needed than he does not know better and I would steer clear of him anyway.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #19 
This will be the last time I have him machine anything for sure! If it still leaks after this epoxy I will find a new junk jug and drop it off at Wausau engines.
TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #20 
Did you get this fixed?
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2007 Outlaw IRS

"Outlaws are the Chuck Norris of the quad world."
fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #21 

I don't know yet. I used some of that two part epoxy on the joint between the sleeve and aluminum where it was leaking at the bottom of the jug. But now I can't get it started. Every ten revolutions or so it goes blub blub like it wants to fire but won't. took back apart three or four times to make sure I had the timing right. Pulled magneto off and checked to make sure my key wasn't sheered. Bought a ultrasonic cleaned and done the carb back up with a new carb kit. Still acts like gas isn't getting where it needs to or something. Even tried squirting a little gas right into the spark plug hole and nothing. It ran last fall when I last messed with it but didn't try to fire it before I took apart this spring to pressure check. Anything I might be missing? Has spark. If I spray starter fluid in there just backfires once or twice and acts the same.
    Exhaust cam is the one with the decompression on it and is on the header side of the head right?
joshr08

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Reply with quote  #22 
I have seen the oring style cylinders before.  Never on a predator Fuji motor.  The guy that did your sleeve screwed your project.  If you cant get it to fire after doing the epoxy on the bottom side of the cylinder did you take a compression test?  My guess is that now with the epoxy your not getting a seal on the base gasket and have no or very low compression. 
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fastricoh21

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Reply with quote  #23 
I kept the epoxy well away from the seat surface. But that is something I should check. Maybe my rings lined up on me or something. I'll check compression this week.
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