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6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #1 
So Im finally getting around to shimming the Preddy and upon inspection the clearance was like a ridiculous amount on the right intake. Probably an 1/8th an inch. So I pull the buckets and realize there is something wrong with the valve or spring. I can fairly easily push the spring retainer down, almost to where I can just grab the keepers. And the spring is not inline with the valve, its like sideways in one direction. 

Does this sound like a bent valve? Or some other valve diagnosis? Any suggestions would be awesome.
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #2 
yeah if the spring is broke it will be easy to push down, if it is at a weird angle i wood say it is most likely a bent valve.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #3 
Time for new valves. Might be worth it to buy a used head on Ebay. Sending the head in will set ya back $500 to do it properly. Plus ya got to find out why it happened. Can you attach a pic, that would be the easiest way to diagnose. 
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554169_356308437794418_2085105956_n.jpg 
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #5 
I have pics, computer is just not wanting to upload them. 

If the spring is broken then is that grounds to say it is all jacked up or can the spring just be replaced? Also everything is in excellent shape except that one area. In the event that the valve is bent but everything else is in good shape would you guys recommend replacing all of it? Springs, valves, basically the whole top end. 

If so, this went from a $60 fix to a $600 fix in a matter of 10 minutes. Thats gonna hurt
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #6 
Ok got the spring out and it is all kinds of messed up. But the valve is not loose wobbly or crooked in any fashion sooo where shall I go from here? Ideally, I would like to just replace the spring and save a few hundred but I have yet to find a single spring. Just kits. I know logically I should just replace all the springs and valves for good measure but due to the fact they all look immaculate, thats hard to consider. What do you guys think?
6Connor6

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IMG_20140703_151451_304.jpg 
6Connor6

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IMG_20140703_151539_662.jpg 
6Connor6

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ORION

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Reply with quote  #10 
Well, you could pull the exhaust or intake and have a look at the valve stems. Check for cracks around them in the head. If that looked OK , I would just throw a spring at it. Worst case situation is that it flies apart and wipes out the whole top end. Damn, I just got ride of all my extra springs. I would have mailed ya one for free.
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Reply with quote  #11 
If one spring went then chances are they all have high hours on them. Be a good idea to at least put a full set of springs in if everything else looks good.
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From: Artesia, New Mexico

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2009 Outlaw 525 S
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6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORION
Well, you could pull the exhaust or intake and have a look at the valve stems. Check for cracks around them in the head. If that looked OK , I would just throw a spring at it. Worst case situation is that it flies apart and wipes out the whole top end. Damn, I just got ride of all my extra springs. I would have mailed ya one for free.



That would have been awesome. I appreciate that. Well i think the idea of new springs sounds good because the valves look solid. College kid so Ill have to budget but itll be well worth it. I will look around for single springs. Thanks guys
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #13 
RockyMountain has the spring retainer, inner spring, and outer spring in the parts schematic for a combined $20. Hard to beat that. Do you guys know if putting the inner and outer spring together is difficult? Ive never done it and Im sure they come assembled in the Kibblewhite kits. Probably buy some collets too for sake of it.
ORION

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Reply with quote  #14 
Its a long shot, but I texted the guy that bought my Outlaw 500, and im trying to barter for one of the extra springs I sold with that quad. I will let ya know. 
ORION

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Reply with quote  #15 
$20 from rocky? Ya man, just grab that. Good deal. 
Kmack

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6Connor6
RockyMountain has the spring retainer, inner spring, and outer spring in the parts schematic for a combined $20. Hard to beat that. Do you guys know if putting the inner and outer spring together is difficult? Ive never done it and Im sure they come assembled in the Kibblewhite kits. Probably buy some collets too for sake of it.

Not a problem, the inner one just slides inside the outer one.

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From: Artesia, New Mexico

BE POSITIVE - Because, if you think you CAN or if you think you CAN'T, you are right!

2009 Outlaw 525 S
2008 KTM 525
2004 KTM 525 EXC Dual Purpose Bike
1998 Yamaha 600 Grizzly - Elk Hauler
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #17 
Orion, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate that bud. I might just scoop up the rocky deal for convenience
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Reply with quote  #18 
At that price, I would probably replace all of the springs. That's pretty cheap for everything you get. If your only replacing one spring, it might not be a bad idea to replace all the valve seals since your in there. 
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #19 
Can anybody tell me what the little green thing is inside the spring in the last pic? Its trashed whatever it is. Im looking over the schematic and have no idea what it is. I see inner spring, outer spring, retainer, and collets. Which I have all of them sitting right here next to me and then there is that little thing inside the spring. If anyone can share some knowledge on that it would be greatly appreciated! thanks
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #20 
Nevermind that is the valve stem seal. It is destroyed. Also after playing with the messed up spring I found that both of them were completely broke, just intertwined together. Is there any chance that my valve isnt jacked? It looks pretty solid but I will inspect some more
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Reply with quote  #21 
You should be able to just replace the seal and springs. If it needs more than that, it probably wont run. Like if the head of the valve is bent so its not in line with the stem or something. Be careful compressing the spring to put the retainers in. Its not too hard to mar up the valve stem if you dont have the right tools.
05pred500

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Reply with quote  #22 
I had an intake valve that was very slightly bent and it would kick compression back out the carb on compression strokes. I don't know if yours did this but it could be a telltale sign of a bent intake valve
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TxOutlawRider

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Reply with quote  #23 
Most any small engine repair shop will check the valve straightness for you for nothing, or really cheap. 
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6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #24 
Well I tried taking the easy way out and feel like I fudged up. I managed to get the broken spring off with just tools in the garage and not having to take the topend off but really didnt think ahead how I was going to get it back on. 

I tried setting one keeper in the retainer and setting a socket on top and applying pressure to push the spring down but my 240lbs is no match for the double springs. 

In the process, the valve is now sitting another half inch lower than it was. So what did I do here? Bend the hell out of it? Push the piston down some? It slides up and down fine but regardless I cant get it locked in and now this so the top end is coming off. Is this a hard task? Looks like there is quite a few bolts to take out. And what all will I need? Im sure a gasket. It needs cleaned out anyways. Some insight on this would be awesome you guys. Thanks!
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #25 
You are going to need a head gasket and cylinder base gasket and to read the service manual carefully on the head torque specs, and timing. Then check those valves and how they seat and seal very carefully.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #26 
Before you tear it apart, try this: 

    Feed a stout rope down the spark plug hole while the piston is at BDC. While holding the valve up by hand, fill up the cylinder with rope but don't drop the rope all the way in, keep some hanging out so you can recover it. Now rotate the crank until the rope is compressed by the piston. Now put it in gear and lock the rear brake on. This will keep the valve closed, so you can work on the springs without the valve dropping down. Now use a lever of some sort to compress the springs and drop the retainers in. 

   1) Use eye protection, even if its just your riding goggles. 

   2) Pack clean paper towels around the cam chain, so you don't drop stuff down there. 

   3) Don't scratch the valve stem or you will burn oil

 This procedure saves a lot of time and money. No new gaskets, don't have to break the cam chain, no torque wrench required, etc. 

    Hope this helps. 

LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #27 
i agree that procedure will work if you are sure that your valve is not bent. i will mention there is no need to break the cam chain on the fuji 500 engine.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #28 
Oh ya, I forgot. You can just pull the cams and leave the chain intact. Been a while since I was into a 500. 

  
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #29 
Ok that sounds a great "work smart, not hard" idea. Just a few questions though.

1. If I took the topend off, what exactly will need to be timed. Im sorry guys Im learning. I actually dont have a service manual at the moment. Just picking you smart fellas brains and learning from you. 

2. Assuming BDC means bottom dead center. How would I know its at that point?

3. And when I turn the crank to compress the rope, do I have to be careful with anything? I know a tough rope is still quite malleable so bending or breaking anything shouldnt be of much worry.

4. And if I put it in gear, Im not going to throw the clutch or anything out of time right? I know when changing the timing chain, I read not to switch gears with the clutch plates off or it could mess stuff up. I feel like even though I have the chain wired up to the handle bars it still slipped on the bottom cam a link or two so Im going to have to take the cover back off and the clutch to get the timing on again once this valve is fixed. 

The reason why the valve pushed down is the valve caught the lip of the retainer instead of being fed through the middle of it and as I pushed down it just pushed the valve down. And maybe the piston? I will try the rope thing for sure though. Definitely beats taking the whole top end off. 
6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #30 
Well I have yet to take the spark plug off until this point and Ive noticed something... yet again. Ofcourse spark plug looked old but if Im looking down the hole I can see the top of the piston correct? And from what I can see it is pretty rough looking. I can see the shiny of the metal but with what looks like a bunch of spots on it. Basically it just looks really dirty. So gentlemen. 

Am I better off just taking the topend to clean everything while Im at it? I imagine all the sludge and build up is not helping anything. I didnt plan on taking the piston out either so can I clean it up still? Or am I crazy here?
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #31 
pistons will always have carbon buildup over time. not a big deal. if you are going to take it apart it would not hurt to clean it, but if you are going to take it out and clean it well you might as well replace it new piston new rings ect. i say only fix what is needed or freshen everything up. the $100 bills will start adding up real fast though.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #32 


    You shouldn't have to pull the head. I recently replaced my intake valve seals and I didn't pull the head for that. I used the rope trick. 

    If you want to remove the carbon from the cylinder, don't. If you feel that you REALLY want to though, then you can do so by putting water into the intake while its running at operating temperature. You would need to Google the procedure, and be very careful. Doing it incorrectly and bend the rod, blow the head gasket, etc. You basically steam clean the cylinder and piston. NOT RECOMMENDED, but It works. 

 
  Here is your factory service manual:   

http://gh-ftp.com/ORV%20Manuals/Polaris/Outlaw/2006/2006%20Outlaw%20500%20-%20SM.pdf


 If you don't like the rope trick, you can build an adapter similar to this, that connects the spark plug hole up to an air hose. The air pressure keeps the valves closed. Its a hollowed out spark plug and an air hose connection. 


DSCN9564.JPG  DSCN9563.JPG 

pimpedpredators

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Reply with quote  #33 
What u need here is a valve spring compressor tool, I have the actual "POLARIS PREDATOR" factory spring compressor, Its simply a piece of flat bar with a "U" at the end. If you go messing around that head with the wrong tools, you are gonna mess it up for sure!! The tool allows you to compress the spring without touching the valve itself,this is the only way to do it without removing the head. I can put up a pic of the tool, it would not be hard to make.Also if the valve is bent, it should show up when you shim it, it will be quite a bit different than the good valve. U can download a free manual on-line, I dont remember where I found mine, I just googled "FREE POLARIS PREDATOR MANUAL" and I got the factory manual, which is far superior to the "Haynes". If you want some good advice, quit working on your quad without a manual, your gonna ruin something by "winging it". Good Luck. 
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6Connor6

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Reply with quote  #34 
Thanks alot guys. I will try the rope trick. That is very crafty Orion, I wouldnt mind trying that either. I will report back if anything else comes up.
ORION

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Reply with quote  #35 
You can find bottom dead center by putting a long rod or something similar down the spark plug hole. Make sure its not resting against the cylinder wall, but on the center of the piston, and rotate the engine. Stop rotating when the rod is furthest down in order to find BDC. Before doing this, take the key out of the ignition, as the starter could force the rod out rapidly. Feed lots of rope into the spark plug hole while holding "up" on the valve, and then roll the engine over till it stops. Kick it in gear to lock the position. When your all done up top, shift to neutral and rotate the engine back. All that's left is to pull the rope out carefully. Use care when removing the rope, don't treat it like a lawn mower pull start cord. If it gets tied up in a knot, then you will have a rough day. I wish I had an engine in the garage that needed this done, because it sounds like fun to do again. I was always afraid of the of top end, and was worried about messing it up. Its actually really simple and easy to work on- as long as you have the exact procedure and proper tools. 


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