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chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi guys,

My first post and I'm hoping you can help me.

I've a pair of 04 "project" predators in need of TLC with the aim of making one show stopper from the two.

When changing the oil in the engine I noticed metal flakes on the sump plug. I was recommended to do an engine rebuild. What does this involve? What should I do to put this motor right?

I don't mind adding a few performance parts at this stage. I want a strong, powerful and reliable engine to last me the next few years.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Craig
~Ireland~

photo (30).JPG 

ORION

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Reply with quote  #2 
Who recommended the rebuilt, the dealer?

What did the flakes look like? Can you attach pics?
chunterjam

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Yep it was the dealer.

I've no pics but most of it was very fine filings however about 3 bits were like coarse sand.
ORION

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Reply with quote  #4 
Chances are, the motor is fine. Engines produce metal shavings and particles - thats why the magnets are there. If a dealer says you need to rebuild it, the reason is because they are in the business of making money, and they want yours.
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #5 
Many thanks for the info Orion, much appreciated. I think the plan now is to put some new oil and engine flush in, run it for an hour then put some good quality oil in it.
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E5UUHhn.jpg 
ORION

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ORION

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Reply with quote  #8 



   Did it look more like the first two pics, or more like this:



Shavings.jpg 



  

chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #9 
Definitely like the first two. They in fact look a little worse than mine!
ORION

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Reply with quote  #10 
Ya metal shavings are totally normal. Not something to worry about at all. In fact, rebuilding the motor will cause more metal shaving to come out because of the "break in".

   Now if you get LOTS of metal coming out- or its of unusually large size and/or color, then you might have an issue. I have had transmission gear teeth come out on the magnet before, and it still ran and shifted fine. It seems like having any metal shavings in the motor would destroy everything, but they are actually pretty harmless - and shavings are impossible to prevent. The areas that would be damaged by debris are protected by oil filters or screen, which catch and hold stuff very well. 

  All the parts in the top end are getting filtered oil delivered to them under pressure, and that all washes everything down to the oil pan, where the particles sink to the bottom - effectively removing debris from the oil circuit. If it gets pulled into the oil pump, it heads strait to the filters. What sticks to magnet is a product of lots and lots of parts moving together at an incredible rate of speed, for an extended length of time. Motors continue to spit metal out over the entire life of the engine.

oil-pa10.jpg 

690oil.jpg

ORION

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    The dealer is suggesting that you pay them $2000-$3000 for a complete engine rebuild, based on metal shavings that are normal, and even expected to be there. Below is a picture of what is done to an ATV engine when it is rebuilt. Upgrades can be equally expensive if you buy them from dealers. For that kind of money, you could buy another quad that has upgrades, and do a motor/parts swap. Then you could basically have a complete, good running spare quad , and performance upgrades - for the same money that the dealer wants to fix a motor that is not broken. 



141_1008_08_o+2009_honda_crf450+engine_breakdown.jpg

chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #12 
That's great Orion, thank you for an incredibly informative answer. You may have just saved me a huge amount of unnecessary expense.

So it seems I may have been worrying over nothing. However, given that I know very little about the history of the bike and the engine, should I take any further precautionary measures or engine work to ensure this engine doesn't go pop i.e. new timing chain, oil and filters etc. ?

As for the tuning, I think engine will have to wait for now until it is up and running well with the first mods probably being intake and exhaust.

I've already purchased a risky stainless steel exhaust! It's not my first choice (in fact I've never even heard of them) ...it was a "new old stock" item going for a very reduced price on ebay UK so I thought what the hell...

It's called a Krieger Competition, German manufactured and looks something like this...

$_57 (2).JPG 
$_57 (3).JPG 
http://www.kriegerbcn.com/

ORION

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There is not much that you can do to ensure that the motor will last any specific length of time. 10 brand new engines will all fail at different times and for different reasons. Believe it or not- the best thing you can do to prolong engine life, is to do the basic maintenance. If you just bought the quads, this is what I would recommend doing:

  Download the owners manual in PDF
  Study the oil change procedure carefully 
  Oil and filter change - using ATV oil
  New air filter - MUST be oil properly
  New spark plug
  New coolant ("Engine Ice" is good)
  Install an hour meter (for oil change intervals)

Replacing parts like the timing chain is not necessary. You don't want to replace things that are in good working order, as it is expensive and it wont really be of any benefit. Now if you are doing major engine repairs and the timing chain has to come out anyway, then putting a new one back in would be a good idea- since your in there. There really isn't much too it, just do all the basic maintenance according to the owners manual, and keep the fluid levels up. Most common causes of ATV engine failure:

   Lack of oil changes
   Low oil level
   Low coolant
   Lack of air filter maintenance
   Improper air filter cleaning/oiling procedure  


Ya, for tuning you would want to get it all put together and ride it around a bit before you do any carburetor work or other performance upgrades/adjustments. That way if you do something to hinder its performance, it will be easy to spot. You want a good baseline starting point to compare the upgrade results to. 
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hour-Meter-Tachometer-Small-Engine-Spark-For-Motorcycle-Boat-Bike-US-STOCK-/131292725676?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e91a801ac
  
   

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Reply with quote  #14 
Orion,, great advise, run it till it dies. if it is making a noise your worried about , take a video record and post it here.   really the two areas that mean the most with predator engine are,,,, 1 the valve lash/shimming/clearance. 2 a proper timing chain tension , either do to a bad tensioner or beat stretched timing chain..... however a stretched chain is unlikely because predator have a high quality timing chain made by D.I.D.  I had a chain tensioners have issues before, do to age....
.. shimming is key with the valves. frequent oil changes are a must, straight shifting prolongs your trans( try not to fan the clutch in 3rd or forth) as a matter of fact just straight shift, no power shifting.!!! and clean the carb and filters/airbox offen. these are the biggest most important things you can do to keep the predator engines running a long time.    metal shavings are normal unless you start getting stringy shavings or chunks.
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #15 
Gentlemen,

Super advice. Thought I would check back in with some progress. New oil and engine flush done. It's been ran for a few hours and the oil changed again with no flakes, shavings or bits on the sump plug.

Unfortunately, after all that it's running a little smokey. This may be due to it being sat up for 3/4 years with the previous owner. There is a bit of oil present on the engine exhaust ports. Compression is good though.

Going to get the head off and check the oil seal rings and the piston. Any other suggestions? Should this be on a separate post?

Thanks
Craig

....powder coating next
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Reply with quote  #16 
If you're gonna have the head off, put valve seals in if you haven't done so already.
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Ya, I agree. Might as well throw some new valve oil seals in there. My outlaw blew smoke when I first got it. The quad came with some paperwork including a Polaris dealer quote for some repairs. Dealer said it was smoking because of bad piston rings, which was good because at least I know that wasn't the problem. Turned out that the intake valve seals were leaking oil, which was visible on the top of the valve heads and stems. When I replaced the seals, the oil burning problem went away. 

   Deal quote to fix oil burning: $3,200

   Actual cost for me to fix it:   $16
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #18 
Understood gentlemen...new valve seals to be ordered imminently. I'll post back with an update when it's done. I'm guessing some new gaskets would be a good idea too.

Not keen on the dealers I see Orion!
ORION

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Well I'll tell ya man, I would like dealers a lot more if I had never met one. Not all dealers are bad, but most of the time they don't know what they are talking about and they always want to sell you their most expensive product/service weather you need it or not. One of my businesses is an automotive repair shop. When customers call in for a quote, I tell them that if they want to - they can get a quote from the dealer for the repairs, and we will do it for half of that. Or if they just bring the car to me, I inspect the car and then I call the dealer and ask for a repair quote- then I chop that price in half to get my repair quote (before I even price parts). What ever the dealer quotes is so ridiculous, that I make a killing at half price. For example: right now I'm working on a retired transit bus that is owned by a private company, and the Ford dealer quoted them $640 for repairs. The parts cost $53 and the labor will be less than an hour. How can the dealer justify almost $600 in labor for 45 minutes of work??? I save people 50% of the repair cost and I still feel like a criminal because I'm making $200-250 an hour fixing these rigs. In the past, before I had the repair shop open, I had taken SEVERAL company vehicles (and a few of  my personal vehicles) into repair shops and they misdiagnosed the problems and then way over charged to fix a part that was not even broken. Never again will I let anyone else fix my rigs, unless they work for me. NEVER AGAIN!
 
  So yes, I hate dealers. They rip people off all day every day. (just my opinion)

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   PLUS, When customers come in, I get to see the old invoices from previous repair shops. One old lady got charged $450 for a rear wheel bearing replacement (fwd car) and another $102 to charge up her battery while it was in the shop. She drove the car to the shop with no electrical problems, and the shop did not repair any electrical issues.  All they did was put her perfectly good battery on a charger (which it did not need) for a $102 fee. Another customer of mine went into a repair place with a flat tire. She had paperwork showing that she had paid that shop $600 to replace her timing belt because they said she REALLY needed it done right away. The car did not even have a timing belt, and the factory original timing chain was still there. I did a complete tune up on a Toyota two months ago. The customer went out of town on vacation, and the check engine light came on. Worried, she took it into the closest dealer and they said it needs a catalytic converter, a tune up, and a coolant flush for the winter. She brought it back to me when she was back in town, and I found that the engine light was on because of a defective gas cap rubber seal. Catalytic converter was fine, it had already JUST been tuned up, and I had JUST flushed the coolant. The dealer quoted her just under $1,800 for work that was not needed. 

   Anyway, don't get me started on dealers/repair shops - I could bellyache about them for hours.

   Sorry for the excessively long-winded answer to you question. I just hate to see people getting ripped off.
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #21 
Excellent Rant! An entertaining read and some shocking carry on! Not keen on stealer dealers myself...they prey on the vulnerable.

So....I've a new daily dilemma in my quest for quad excellence. It might just be the solution to my engine-less second predator. I've just happened upon a KTM LC4 640 engine, with loom, cdi, fans, carb and a full titanium akrapovic system only 20 minutes up the road. They are leftovers from a guys projects. I've seen these engines in the outlaw but will they fit in the predator?

Tempted to bite the bullet and just go for it.......jeez I think I'm gonna need some more cash
chunterjam

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....

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LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #23 
I have not seen one of those in a Predator Frame but I do believe the predator frame has more room in it than the outlaw frame so I would say yes go forit and no matter what a project of that magnitude will take some cutting and fitting for sure anyway so again I say go for it.
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MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
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2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
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Reply with quote  #24 
Yup, I agree with Leo. Do it!!
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chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #25 
Scratch that idea....the output shaft is on the wrong side :-( Quest continues....
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #26 
axle and carrier flip.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
ORION

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Reply with quote  #27 
Ya, I was think'n the same thinking- flip everything around. I have done that before several times before and its usually the easiest part of the whole project. 
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #28 
Thought I'd check in with some more progress....
 
So the head is now off and it looks like it's been worked on before. The inner valve springs seem very tight on the valve oil seals. I'm thinking this might be preventing the seals from working correctly...hence the smoky exhaust and oil at the header/cylinder interface. New springs, oil seals, gasket kit and exhaust seals on the way.
 
In terms of the overall build, frame, arms etc. is away with the powdercoater (hoping it'll be done in time for Christmas)....
photo 1.PNG 


photo 2.PNG 
 
....new set of Silvertec-Nerfs and Douglas Quad

photo 3.PNG 

photo 4.PNG 
...and a shiny new set of Douglas Quad Rok 9x8 alloy wheels

photo 5.JPG 
...however the holes are tapered which means I can't use my existing wheel studs. New douglas tapered lug nuts are expensive...especially coming from the US. I've ordered some Mini Cooper 3/8-24 lug nuts with a 60 degree taper to see if they fit. 

So all is going well and progressing with the Predator. Wish my work life was going as good...I've managed to destroy a set of brand new rear carbon fibre brakes on a Jaguar F Type prototype. Think I'm in for a spanking....

chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #29 
Bad times....found this in the sump. Looks like a circlip, maybe a thrust washer :-( Any ideas folks?

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LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #30 
i am not 100% on the size of them but they look like the cam placement half rings. the things i am thinking of are about the size of a silver dollar. the go in between the cam and cam retainer cap. they are #1 on the intake and exhaust schematic called stopper bearings.

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/oem-schematic/1

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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #31 
Leo you are a star! That's exactly what they are. Thank you. Not entirely sure how they got there though.
Brandon13buckley

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Reply with quote  #32 
Those are the two half rings that sit ontop of the cams youll have to pull the cover off and take the cams out and see what caused this problem.
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #33 
Sometimes I feel like I want to give up.......

So I brought the barrel to two separate machine shops to check the cylinder was still within roundness and taper spec.

The first guy noticed some damage I hadn't noticed...he said the cylinder needed to be bored oversize and an oversize piston fitted.

So I went for a second opinion...the second guy said I couldn't bore the cylinder due to it being one piece aluminium and because of a "Nikasil" coating. His solution was to bore it out, fit a steel sleeve then fit whatever piston I want.

This is starting to sound like big bore territory! What should I do?? Hmmm...
LEOGM5150

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Reply with quote  #34 
Big bore.
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FROM: POWELL WYOMING USA

MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT WHEN I DIE MY WIFE WILL SELL MY TOYS FOR WHAT I TOLD HER I HAVE INTO THEM...

2014 POLARIS RZR 4 900 EPS
2012 POLARIS RZR 4 900 XP
2008 POLARIS RZR 800
2008 POLARIS OUTLAW 525S LE
2007 POLARIS OUTLAW 525 IRS
2000 400 RCR TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2001 400 TWO STROKE SCRAMBLER
2005 SKI DOO 1000 TWO STROKE SAND SLED
garry hamill

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterjam
Sometimes I feel like I want to give up.......

So I brought the barrel to two separate machine shops to check the cylinder was still within roundness and taper spec.

The first guy noticed some damage I hadn't noticed...he said the cylinder needed to be bored oversize and an oversize piston fitted.

So I went for a second opinion...the second guy said I couldn't bore the cylinder due to it being one piece aluminium and because of a "Nikasil" coating. His solution was to bore it out, fit a steel sleeve then fit whatever piston I want.

This is starting to sound like big bore territory! What should I do?? Hmmm...
here's mine in Northern Ireland chunterjam
polarisjunkymike

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Reply with quote  #36 
Orion I know this is an old post and I know you stated not all dealers are bad but I have worked at dealers for the past 13yrs. What goes on at dealers goes on tenfold at other shops. Can't tell you how many timing belts and sets of struts have been recommended by places like firestone at mileage such as 20k. Now I'm also not saying independent shops are bad I'm just saying if I w as gonna pay someone to work on my stuff I want someone who primarily works on what I have. For example I would love to see bp procare challenge my knowledge of audi. Just about anyone can work on a 70's chevy small block, not everyone can work on German engineered, direct injected, turbocharged motor with variable valve lift. All I'm saying is I would rather pay someone manufacturer specific than a dude that drove one or changed oil on one.
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garry hamill

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garry hamill
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterjam
Sometimes I feel like I want to give up.......

So I brought the barrel to two separate machine shops to check the cylinder was still within roundness and taper spec.

The first guy noticed some damage I hadn't noticed...he said the cylinder needed to be bored oversize and an oversize piston fitted.

So I went for a second opinion...the second guy said I couldn't bore the cylinder due to it being one piece aluminium and because of a "Nikasil" coating. His solution was to bore it out, fit a steel sleeve then fit whatever piston I want.

This is starting to sound like big bore territory! What should I do?? Hmmm...
here's mine in Northern Ireland chunterjam

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ScramblerXLE

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterjam
Sometimes I feel like I want to give up....... So I brought the barrel to two separate machine shops to check the cylinder was still within roundness and taper spec. The first guy noticed some damage I hadn't noticed...he said the cylinder needed to be bored oversize and an oversize piston fitted. So I went for a second opinion...the second guy said I couldn't bore the cylinder due to it being one piece aluminium and because of a "Nikasil" coating. His solution was to bore it out, fit a steel sleeve then fit whatever piston I want. This is starting to sound like big bore territory! What should I do?? Hmmm...


Having your cylidner re-nikasil plated, then bored to match your piston and finish diamond-honed is about $200 through Millennium Technologies.  Add in about $200 for a piston, and you're somewhere around $400 for a new top-end.

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2015 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450XC
2009 KTM 250XC
2005 Predator 558 (project)
2003 Cannondale 440 (project)
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2002 Scrambler X 500
Sold, crashed, or otherwise gone: 2008 YFZ450, 2005 Predator 500 LE, 2007 Outlaw 525, 2003 Cannondale 440
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #39 
Leo, you've been right about everything so far....the big bore is very nearly as cheap as head rework. I can get the big bore bits I need on eBay including delivery for a little over $300.....then I just need to get someone this side of the Atlantic to bore the cylinder and press in the sleeve.

Nice bike Garry....love the yoshi pipes and colour coded bead locks. Know any good tracks in the North where I can take mine once it's done? Desertmartin looks great.

Thanks for the info scrambler...so your saying I can bore the original cylinder oversize? I thought the order of work would be bore - plate - hone?
garry hamill

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Reply with quote  #40 
Yea there's a good one midulster mx in Tyrone it's not bad good bit easy er than Desertmartin youl find it on Facebook
ScramblerXLE

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Reply with quote  #41 
No.  The prices I gave are for a stock-sized re-plate.  They plate the cylinder too thickly on purpose, then they match the bore to whatever piston you're going to put in with the appropriate clearance (per the piston manufacturer's spec) then they do a diamond hone and send it back.   I would think there is enough cylinder wall on the Predator to go a millimeter or 2 oversized without issue, but as far as I know, no one makes a piston that is only a mil or 2 oversized.  The $200 will go up a little if there is enough damage to mandate that millenium weld your cylinder prior to plating.  Really depends on how bad it is.

I just wanted to let you know what getting the OEM cylinder back to spec would run so you can make an educated decision from a cost standpoint on whether or not to go with the big-bore.

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-Walt GNCC # 728 (GNCC - Vet A)
2015 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450XC
2009 KTM 250XC
2005 Predator 558 (project)
2003 Cannondale 440 (project)
2006 KLX 250S
2002 Scrambler X 500
Sold, crashed, or otherwise gone: 2008 YFZ450, 2005 Predator 500 LE, 2007 Outlaw 525, 2003 Cannondale 440
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #42 
@scrambler - thanks, that's great to know. I just need to find someone in Ireland/UK to do it now I'm armed with the correct info :-)

So....the options as I see them are as follows:

1) Thick plating of Nikasil, bore to stock size, hone and fit new piston rings

or

2) Buy a JE or Wiseco big bore kit from the USA, find someone in Ireland/UK to bore the cylinder and press in the steel sleeve. Can any of the euro zone members recommend a machine shop? Is there any special machining processes I require? Knowledge is power when approaching these guys for quotations.

Watch this space....I'll go check my bank balance!
chunterjam

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Reply with quote  #43 
Ok....Big bore kit it is. I just need to decide on JE or Wiseco.

I'm going to find a machine shop in Ireland to do the work.

However I'm afraid someone will take on the work and pretend they know what they are doing and f**K it up.

What is the process? I thought it was bore and press in but I've heard something about wet liners and not sure what this means in terms of the predator.

Help would be appreciated.
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